ScotRail -> First ScotRail

[David Marsh]

Just wondering, what will happen to the ScotRail name (etc) when First
ScotRail take over?

For example, there's the existing ScotRail website (which I think was
actually set up way back by BR ScotRail, certainly I think it was one of
the first parts of the UK rail network to get a web presence), which
must have been bookmarked and indexed by many people and search engines
over the years.

Who actually owns 'scotrail.co.uk'? Does it belong to NEx or to the
Government? Will the domain name have to be given over to First ScotRail?

There really ought to be 'generic' domain names for each franchise set
up by the Government (for permalinking) which point to the actual
franchise sites. (Mind you, it doesn't help with the 'national network'
itself having gone from rail.co.uk to nationalrail.co.uk..)


And what about the station signs? Are these all going to get yet another
labelling treatment (that'd be their fourth in not very many years..).
Given that the formal name of the franchise, if I'm not mistaken, is
actually "ScotRail Railways", I don't see why they just couldn't remain
the signs as is with the NEx ScotRail logo blanked out.

[Stevie]

Post by David Marsh
Just wondering, what will happen to the ScotRail name (etc) when First
ScotRail take over?
For example, there's the existing ScotRail website (which I think was
actually set up way back by BR ScotRail, certainly I think it was one of
the first parts of the UK rail network to get a web presence), which
must have been bookmarked and indexed by many people and search engines
over the years.
Who actually owns 'scotrail.co.uk'? Does it belong to NEx or to the
Government? Will the domain name have to be given over to First ScotRail?
There really ought to be 'generic' domain names for each franchise set
up by the Government (for permalinking) which point to the actual
franchise sites. (Mind you, it doesn't help with the 'national network'
itself having gone from rail.co.uk to nationalrail.co.uk..)
And what about the station signs? Are these all going to get yet another
labelling treatment (that'd be their fourth in not very many years..).
Given that the formal name of the franchise, if I'm not mistaken, is
actually "ScotRail Railways", I don't see why they just couldn't remain
the signs as is with the NEx ScotRail logo blanked out.

What'll happen will probably be what happened down here with Connex
South East losing their franchise.

Basically, the website changed from http://www.connex.co.uk to
http://www.setrains.co.uk but obviously that wont be an option with
'scotrail.co.uk'. Incidentally, scotrail.co.uk is just owned by
'ScotRail' according to a whois check at nominet.org.uk.

However, all the station signs were changed in Connexland. But, as
South East Trains isn't the final franchise operator, they just stuck
sticky labels over the Connex name and colour scheme and likewise, all
the trains had the word Connex removed from them.

[JB]

Post by Stevie
However, all the station signs were changed in Connexland. But, as
South East Trains isn't the final franchise operator, they just stuck
sticky labels over the Connex name and colour scheme and likewise, all
the trains had the word Connex removed from them.

Don't forget that Conned were responsible for the "de-connexing" which is
probably why it's so particularly cheap and nasty.

[Ian Johnston]

On Tue, 14 Sep 2004 16:40:27 UTC, David Marsh
<***@your.newsreader.may.be.broken> wrote:

: Who actually owns 'scotrail.co.uk'?

======================================================
scotrail.co.uk
======================================================
UK2.NET DOMAIN REPORTING - UK'S BIGGEST DOMAIN HOST
======================================================
Tue Sep 14 18:38:45 2004
======================================================

Domain Name:
scotrail.co.uk

Registrant:
ScotRail

Registrant's Agent:
Telenor Business Solutions UK Ltd [Tag = CIX]
URL: http://www.cix.co.uk

Relevant Dates:
Last updated: 28-Jan-1999

Ian
--

[standardblue]

Post by David Marsh
Just wondering, what will happen to the ScotRail name (etc) when First
ScotRail take over?

It changes to First ScotRail, First have said.

Post by David Marsh
For example, there's the existing ScotRail website (which I think was
actually set up way back by BR ScotRail, certainly I think it was one of
the first parts of the UK rail network to get a web presence), which
must have been bookmarked and indexed by many people and search engines
over the years.

The new one, www.firstscotrail.com points to
http://www.firstgroup.com/scotrail/

Post by David Marsh
Who actually owns 'scotrail.co.uk'? Does it belong to NEx or to the
Government? Will the domain name have to be given over to First ScotRail?

A quick 'whois' lookup reveals ScotRail owns it. (very little other info
is given). Try it youself at www.DNSstuff.com

Post by David Marsh
There really ought to be 'generic' domain names for each franchise set
up by the Government (for permalinking) which point to the actual
franchise sites. (Mind you, it doesn't help with the 'national network'
itself having gone from rail.co.uk to nationalrail.co.uk..)

See also the discussions about franchise liveries. I expect First will try
to get hold of scotrail.co.uk.

Post by David Marsh
And what about the station signs? Are these all going to get yet another
labelling treatment (that'd be their fourth in not very many years..).
Given that the formal name of the franchise, if I'm not mistaken, is
actually "ScotRail Railways", I don't see why they just couldn't remain
the signs as is with the NEx ScotRail logo blanked out.

From what first have been saying, they're going to concentrate on
delivering the service. There will be 3 trains Barbied-up for the launch,
but no more - they will presumably be rebranded and named, but apparently
will not be relivered until they are due for overhaul/repaint etc. The
same may well happen for station signs. Major stations - Glasgow Queen St,
etc may get rebranded, but the smaller ones may not - there's probably
still some Strathclyde Orange (Red!) signs in the SPT area - at least
there were until recently, I'm sure.

Cheers,

sb

[Ewan]

[....] Major stations - Glasgow Queen St,
etc may get rebranded, but the smaller ones may not - there's probably
still some Strathclyde Orange (Red!) signs in the SPT area - at least
there were until recently, I'm sure.

There's an old SPT red sign in Central. There are also still a number of
red and black 314s!

eat

[Neil Williams]

On Tue, 14 Sep 2004 18:43:50 +0100, standardblue

Post by standardblue
there's probably
still some Strathclyde Orange (Red!) signs in the SPT area - at least
there were until recently, I'm sure.

Never mind Regional Railways branding, there are still plenty of
station signs with Network NorthWest branding in the outer reaches of
the fNW area, not to mention a good number of old-style no-branding BR
plates.

The First(f) stickers have come out in busier locations, but by no
means throughout.

Neil

[David Hansen]

On Tue, 14 Sep 2004 16:40:27 -0000 someone who may be David Marsh

Post by David Marsh
Just wondering, what will happen to the ScotRail name (etc) when First
ScotRail take over?

The new shower appear to want to put their name on the front.

Post by David Marsh
And what about the station signs? Are these all going to get yet another
labelling treatment (that'd be their fourth in not very many years..).

I imagine they will change them all to pink:-(

Post by David Marsh
Given that the formal name of the franchise, if I'm not mistaken, is
actually "ScotRail Railways", I don't see why they just couldn't remain
the signs as is with the NEx ScotRail logo blanked out.

The "swosh" is actually a BR logo, introduced IIRC by Chris Green in
his second incarnation.

[Ian McMillan]

Post by David Hansen
On Tue, 14 Sep 2004 16:40:27 -0000 someone who may be David Marsh

Post by David Marsh
Given that the formal name of the franchise, if I'm not mistaken, is
actually "ScotRail Railways", I don't see why they just couldn't
remain the signs as is with the NEx ScotRail logo blanked out.

The "swosh" is actually a BR logo, introduced IIRC by Chris Green in
his second incarnation.

Indeed, however National Express then changed the colours of the swoosh.

[Jim Mason]

Post by David Hansen
On Tue, 14 Sep 2004 16:40:27 -0000 someone who may be David Marsh

Post by David Marsh
Just wondering, what will happen to the ScotRail name (etc) when First
ScotRail take over?

The new shower appear to want to put their name on the front.

I wonder why that might be?

Jim

[David Hansen]

On Wed, 15 Sep 2004 01:08:35 +0100 someone who may be Jim Mason

Post by Jim Mason

Post by David Hansen
The new shower appear to want to put their name on the front.

I wonder why that might be?

They should not be allowed to do so. If the government had any sort
of clue about franchising they would not be allowed to.

[Terry Harper]

Post by David Hansen
They should not be allowed to do so. If the government had any sort
of clue about franchising they would not be allowed to.

If it was true franchising, then presumably we would have uniform names and
liveries, like Macdonalds or Burger King?

[David Hansen]

On Wed, 15 Sep 2004 09:12:43 +0000 (UTC) someone who may be "Terry

Post by Terry Harper
If it was true franchising, then presumably we would have uniform names and
liveries, like Macdonalds or Burger King?

I have suggested the name British Railways for this operation. Could
be a winner.

[Jim Mason]

Post by David Hansen
On Wed, 15 Sep 2004 01:08:35 +0100 someone who may be Jim Mason

Post by Jim Mason

Post by David Hansen
The new shower appear to want to put their name on the front.

I wonder why that might be?

They should not be allowed to do so.

I for the life of me cannot see why not.

Jim

[David Hansen]

On Wed, 15 Sep 2004 12:41:17 +0100 someone who may be Jim Mason

Post by Jim Mason

Post by David Hansen

Post by Jim Mason

Post by David Hansen
The new shower appear to want to put their name on the front.

I wonder why that might be?

They should not be allowed to do so.

I for the life of me cannot see why not.

The first rule of franchising is that it is the franchisor that is
promoted, not the franchisee.

Take a look at beefburger "restaurants" and see if you notice the
name of the franchisee on the big signs over the "restaurant".

[Jim Mason]

Post by David Hansen
On Wed, 15 Sep 2004 12:41:17 +0100 someone who may be Jim Mason

Post by Jim Mason

Post by David Hansen

Post by Jim Mason

Post by David Hansen
The new shower appear to want to put their name on the front.

I wonder why that might be?

They should not be allowed to do so.

I for the life of me cannot see why not.

The first rule of franchising is that it is the franchisor that is
promoted, not the franchisee.

Can you provide me with a link to these official rules?

Jim

[TheMole]

Post by Jim Mason
Can you provide me with a link to these official rules?

They are not official rules, merely common business sense.

[David Hansen]

On Wed, 15 Sep 2004 17:07:37 +0100 someone who may be Jim Mason

Post by Jim Mason

Post by David Hansen
The first rule of franchising is that it is the franchisor that is
promoted, not the franchisee.

Can you provide me with a link to these official rules?

I didn't say anything about "official" rules.

It is a rule of doing business sensibly that a franchisor gets
franchisees to promote the franchisor rather then themselves.

[Jim Mason]

Post by David Hansen
On Wed, 15 Sep 2004 17:07:37 +0100 someone who may be Jim Mason

Post by Jim Mason

Post by David Hansen
The first rule of franchising is that it is the franchisor that is
promoted, not the franchisee.

Can you provide me with a link to these official rules?

I didn't say anything about "official" rules.
It is a rule of doing business sensibly that a franchisor gets
franchisees to promote the franchisor rather then themselves.

Personally I believe if we are to get any sort of integration between
First's bus and train interests then it is esssential that their name
appear on both modes of transport. They can call themselves whatever they
care as long as they improve what has gone before them.

Jim

[Robert Inder]

Subject: Re: ScotRail -> First ScotRail
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 20:43:35 +0100

Post by David Hansen
On Wed, 15 Sep 2004 17:07:37 +0100 someone who may be Jim Mason

Post by Jim Mason

Post by David Hansen
The first rule of franchising is that it is the franchisor that is
promoted, not the franchisee.

Can you provide me with a link to these official rules?

I didn't say anything about "official" rules.
It is a rule of doing business sensibly that a franchisor gets
franchisees to promote the franchisor rather then themselves.

Personally I believe if we are to get any sort of integration between
First's bus and train interests then it is esssential that their name
appear on both modes of transport.

Surely NOT. They can't be allowed to integrate their train operations
with THEIR bus operations.

If we are going to have this nonsensical "competitive" transport
system, they must surely integrate with EVERYBODY's bus operations on
an equal footing.

They can call themselves whatever they
care as long as they improve what has gone before them.

Not if that improvement leads to unfair competition.

Jim

Robert.

--
__ To avoid the spam trap, mail me
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Best viewed in Ebriated.

[Craig Nicol]

Post by Jim Mason

Post by David Hansen
On Wed, 15 Sep 2004 17:07:37 +0100 someone who may be Jim Mason

Post by Jim Mason

Post by David Hansen
The first rule of franchising is that it is the franchisor that is
promoted, not the franchisee.

Can you provide me with a link to these official rules?

I didn't say anything about "official" rules.
It is a rule of doing business sensibly that a franchisor gets
franchisees to promote the franchisor rather then themselves.

Personally I believe if we are to get any sort of integration between
First's bus and train interests then it is esssential that their name
appear on both modes of transport. They can call themselves whatever they
care as long as they improve what has gone before them.
Jim

Does that mean we'll have to have First SPT and First Calmac before they
can integrate successfully with those services then?

Craig

[Jim Mason]

Post by Craig Nicol

Post by Jim Mason

Post by David Hansen
On Wed, 15 Sep 2004 17:07:37 +0100 someone who may be Jim Mason

Post by Jim Mason

Post by David Hansen
The first rule of franchising is that it is the franchisor that is
promoted, not the franchisee.

Can you provide me with a link to these official rules?

I didn't say anything about "official" rules.
It is a rule of doing business sensibly that a franchisor gets
franchisees to promote the franchisor rather then themselves.

Personally I believe if we are to get any sort of integration between
First's bus and train interests then it is esssential that their name
appear on both modes of transport. They can call themselves whatever they
care as long as they improve what has gone before them.
Jim

Does that mean we'll have to have First SPT and First Calmac before they
can integrate successfully with those services then?

First don't own SPT or Cal-Mac - they do however own First Bus which if
they do not integrate better with train services ran by First Scotrail then
they would be doing the travelling public a disservice. Personally I prefer
the state owned transport system such as Sydneys where buses, ferries and
trains integrate with each other with single ticketing.

Jim

[James Christie]

Post by Jim Mason

Post by Craig Nicol

Post by Jim Mason

Post by David Hansen
On Wed, 15 Sep 2004 17:07:37 +0100 someone who may be Jim Mason

Post by Jim Mason

Post by David Hansen
The first rule of franchising is that it is the franchisor that is
promoted, not the franchisee.

Can you provide me with a link to these official rules?

I didn't say anything about "official" rules.
It is a rule of doing business sensibly that a franchisor gets
franchisees to promote the franchisor rather then themselves.

Personally I believe if we are to get any sort of integration between
First's bus and train interests then it is esssential that their name
appear on both modes of transport. They can call themselves whatever they
care as long as they improve what has gone before them.
Jim

Does that mean we'll have to have First SPT and First Calmac before they
can integrate successfully with those services then?

First don't own SPT or Cal-Mac - they do however own First Bus which if
they do not integrate better with train services ran by First Scotrail then
they would be doing the travelling public a disservice. Personally I prefer
the state owned transport system such as Sydneys where buses, ferries and
trains integrate with each other with single ticketing.
Jim

Only a matter of time, the Scottish Executive have decided they aren't
even going to try and fight the EU rules on tendering for Calmac, so who
knows, I wouldn't put it past First submitting a tender.

[Michael Walker]

Post by Jim Mason
First don't own SPT or Cal-Mac - they do however own First Bus which if
they do not integrate better with train services ran by First Scotrail then
they would be doing the travelling public a disservice. Personally I prefer
the state owned transport system such as Sydneys where buses, ferries and
trains integrate with each other with single ticketing.

Which Sydney does this? Certainly not the Australian one.

[Jim Mason]

Post by David Hansen
On Wed, 15 Sep 2004 12:41:17 +0100 someone who may be Jim Mason

Post by Jim Mason

Post by David Hansen

Post by Jim Mason

Post by David Hansen
The new shower appear to want to put their name on the front.

I wonder why that might be?

They should not be allowed to do so.

I for the life of me cannot see why not.

The first rule of franchising is that it is the franchisor that is
promoted, not the franchisee.
Take a look at beefburger "restaurants" and see if you notice the
name of the franchisee on the big signs over the "restaurant".

I found this to be of interest

http://www.whichfranchise.com/feature_template.cfm?FeatureID=26

especially this part

"1. The Terms

As there is no specific legislation or regulation for franchising, the
franchise agreement becomes all-important in determining the rights and
obligations of the franchisor and the franchisee and the relationship
between them."

No specific legislation would appear to me that there were no franchising
rules but maybe I'm missing something.

Jim

[David Hansen]

On Wed, 15 Sep 2004 17:11:08 +0100 someone who may be Jim Mason

Post by Jim Mason
No specific legislation would appear to me that there were no franchising
rules but maybe I'm missing something.

You are missing the difference between rules and laws.

[Jack]

Post by David Hansen
On Wed, 15 Sep 2004 01:08:35 +0100 someone who may be Jim Mason

Post by Jim Mason

Post by David Hansen
The new shower appear to want to put their name on the front.

I wonder why that might be?

They should not be allowed to do so. If the government had any sort
of clue about franchising they would not be allowed to.

You're absolutely and completely right.

Something that's bothered me for a long time is the obsession with
branding that infests councils and other public bodies nowadays.

Huge sums are wasted on pointless sign replacement and logo-swapping,
frequently from companies and organisations that claim to be putting the
environment first. If they really were doing so, then buildings, etc,
would get cast-iron last-forever name signs, completely devoid of any
reference to the owning / controlling organisation, thus completely
obviating any need to ever change them, no matter who or what is in
charge.

This is how it should be on the railways, with the franchise operator
being hidden behind a common brand applied on a national level.

[Splee]

Post by Jack
Huge sums are wasted on pointless sign replacement and logo-swapping,
frequently from companies and organisations that claim to be putting the
environment first. If they really were doing so, then buildings, etc,
would get cast-iron last-forever name signs, completely devoid of any
reference to the owning / controlling organisation, thus completely
obviating any need to ever change them, no matter who or what is in
charge.
This is how it should be on the railways, with the franchise operator
being hidden behind a common brand applied on a national level.

Totally. If this had been done properly, we'd have kept the InterCity
brand, one of the most famous and widely-recognised brand names in the
country. I'm really annoyed about it's loss, and it means we have lost
the marketing strength of a common national network.

National Express is run entirely by independent franchisees, but it has
kept the common branding, which is clearly one of its greatest strengths.

Lee

[Alan J. Flavell]

Post by Splee
really annoyed about it's loss,

I'm really annoyed about "it's" unsolicited gain.

Oh well. news:alt.possessive.its.has.no.apostrophe

[Owen Dunn]

Post by David Marsh
Who actually owns 'scotrail.co.uk'? Does it belong to NEx or to the
Government? Will the domain name have to be given over to First ScotRail?

The ScotRail trademark is owned by the SRA, so I imagine the domain
will be transferred to First.

(S)