FirstGroup confirmed as winners of next ScotRail franchise

[David Marsh]

BBC News reports that FirstGroup have been confirmed as the winners of
the next ScotRail franchise.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/3582710.stm

[Paul Robertson]

Post by David Marsh
BBC News reports that FirstGroup have been confirmed as the winners
of the next ScotRail franchise.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/3582710.stm

More on how it affects the west in today's Evening Times [my notes]
Quote:
SCOTS rail passengers were today promised a £40million package of
improvements to services.

New late night and holiday weekend trains will be introduced in
Glasgow and throughout the Strathclyde Passenger Transport area.

Station improvements and better and safer trains were also pledged
as FirstGroup was today confirmed as the new operator of ScotRail.

The firm has also given a commitment to support the Scottish
Executive plans for a Glasgow Airport rail link and the reopening
of the Airdrie-Bathgate link.

As revealed by the Evening Times in June, FirstGroup will take
over the running of the country's rail network from October 17
in a £1.9billion, seven-year franchise deal.

However, to pay for the service improvements, First Group will
crack down on ticket and travel fraud.

Closed-circuit television cameras are also to be fitted to more
than 250 trains in an attempt to curb vandalism and make trains
safer.

Making the official announcement, Scottish Transport Minister
Nicol Stephen insisted the bus and train company would continue
to run all current services operated by ScotRail and the SPT.

He said passengers would also see improvements.

These will include new late-night services and a normal daily
service will run on public holidays throughout the SPT area.

Rail bosses said the shake-up had been ordered by Strathclyde
Passenger Transport because more people were staying longer in
the centre of Glasgow. As a result, late-night services will run
from Monday to Saturday.

An extra train will run on every SPT route out of Glasgow between
11.45pm and 12.15am.

A starting date for the late-night services has to be agreed.

A total of 21 trains in and around Glasgow[1] will get new interiors
and there will be improvements at every station, with extra work
at Glasgow Queen Street.

A fleet of 29 "more reliable" trains is planned, providing almost
6000 extra seats throughout the country's rail network[2].

Overcrowding is also to be tackled, with a promise that no
passenger should have to wait more than 10 minutes for a seat.

There is also to be a crackdown on passengers who avoid paying
fares. Automatic ticket gates are to be introduced at Ayr, with
more ticket inspections at Partick and Argyle Street, Glasgow.

Mr Stephen again emphasised that the planned Hamilton-Larkhall stage
would be built to extend services from Milngavie to Larkhall[3].

There will also be improvements to services to and from the city
when the proposed Stirling-Alloa-Kincardine line is finally up
and running[4].

The range of improvements will be gradually phased in, but First
executives have been warned that tougher penalties were also being
introduced and they would be rigorously enforced if higher standards
of performance were not met.

Mary Dickson, managing director designate for First ScotRail, said:
"We are making a real investment in rail infrastructure to improve
reliability, punctuality, performance and customer service."

- New late-night and public holiday trains
- Improvements at every rail station, with extra work at Glasgow
Queen Street
- Support for airport link, Airdrie-Bathgate and Larkhall-Milngavie services
- 21 Glasgow and district trains get new interiors

End quote.

[1] Sounds like Class 318. A pity because their seats are the
most comfortable of the classes of EMU in service here.
[2] Anyone know if this is just a restatement of previous intentions
to strengthen Classes 170 and 334, or actual additional vehicles?
[3] No apparent commitment to redouble the Milngavie line throughout,
so once things go off-plan at Westerton, the whole timetable is
likely to go out of the window.
[4] Could this just be an extension of the Cumbernauld service? The
line from Queen Street to Greenhill via Croy is pretty busy as it is.

[Stuart Jamieson]

Post by Paul Robertson
There will also be improvements to services to and from the city
when the proposed Stirling-Alloa-Kincardine line is finally up
and running[4].
[4] Could this just be an extension of the Cumbernauld service? The
line from Queen Street to Greenhill via Croy is pretty busy as it is.

At the moment the service is twice an hour Queen St->Stirling

One of which continues to Dunblane and terminates, the other terminates at
Stirling.

What will most likely happen is that the other will now terminate at Alloa
and return.

So there will be just as many trains on the line just one of the trains will
go further.

Improvements to services could mean anything.

--
Stuart Jamieson
Technical Manager
Interactive Outdoors
***@npgvir-bhgqbbef.pb.hx
UnScramble (ROT13) for Email address

[4973]

Post by Stuart Jamieson

Post by Paul Robertson
There will also be improvements to services to and from the city
when the proposed Stirling-Alloa-Kincardine line is finally up
and running[4].
[4] Could this just be an extension of the Cumbernauld service? The
line from Queen Street to Greenhill via Croy is pretty busy as it is.

At the moment the service is twice an hour Queen St->Stirling
One of which continues to Dunblane and terminates, the other terminates at
Stirling.
What will most likely happen is that the other will now terminate at Alloa
and return.

From what I remember of the layover at Stirling it is probably not enough to
cover the trip to Alloa and back. Some recasting of the service will be
required, quite possibly the Dunblane service will revert to being just
Waverley to Dunblane.

Having said that I remember looking at the public TT a few years back and
working out that the roster was something like Waverley - Bathgate -
NewCraighall - Dunblane - Waverley.

[Stuart Jamieson]

Post by 4973

Post by Stuart Jamieson

Post by Paul Robertson
There will also be improvements to services to and from the city
when the proposed Stirling-Alloa-Kincardine line is finally up
and running[4].
[4] Could this just be an extension of the Cumbernauld service? The
line from Queen Street to Greenhill via Croy is pretty busy as it is.

At the moment the service is twice an hour Queen St->Stirling
One of which continues to Dunblane and terminates, the other
terminates at Stirling.
What will most likely happen is that the other will now terminate at
Alloa and return.

From what I remember of the layover at Stirling it is probably not
enough to cover the trip to Alloa and back. Some recasting of the
service will be required, quite possibly the Dunblane service will
revert to being just Waverley to Dunblane.
Having said that I remember looking at the public TT a few years back
and working out that the roster was something like Waverley -
Bathgate - NewCraighall - Dunblane - Waverley.

I think though I'm not fully sure that the lay over is aprox 20 mins see If
I get this right.

:18, :48 Trains Depart Glasgow
:58, :31 Trains Arrive Stirling
:31 Trains Depart Stirling
:40 Trains Arrive Dunblane
:40 Trains Depart Dunblane
:48 Trains Arrive Stirling
:20, :49 Trains Depart Stirling
:01, :29 Trains Arrive Glasgow

:03, :33 Trains Depart Waverly
:52, :22 Trains Arrive Stirling
:03, :33 Trains Arrive Dunblane
:27, :57 Trains Depart Dunblane
:35, :05 Trains Arrive Stirling
:29, :58 Trains Arrive Waverly

I think that's correct can someone confirm?

Well, one soloution would be firstly to terminate one of the Edinburgh
services at Alloa, the route it back to Glasgow.
In the meantime the Glasgow service terminated at Stirling returns to
Edinburgh.

I think that gives a Whole Hour Crossover for the trip to Alloa and Back and
still keeps both services running (with the loss of one Edinburgh->Dunblane
service)

Of course if I've got the timetable wrong that is a whole load of rubbish or
at least the timings will be.

--
Stuart Jamieson
Technical Manager
Interactive Outdoors
***@npgvir-bhgqbbef.pb.hx
UnScramble (ROT13) for Email address

[Fraser]

Post by Stuart Jamieson
I think that gives a Whole Hour Crossover for the trip to Alloa and Back and
still keeps both services running (with the loss of one

Edinburgh->Dunblane

Post by Stuart Jamieson
service)
Of course if I've got the timetable wrong that is a whole load of rubbish or
at least the timings will be.

See my earlier posting for a better idea. :)

[Ross A. Nicol]

Post by 4973
From what I remember of the layover at Stirling it is probably not enough to
cover the trip to Alloa and back. Some recasting of the service will be
required, quite possibly the Dunblane service will revert to being just
Waverley to Dunblane.

Just checked the timetables, and the Glasgow -> Stirling arrives here at
xx:58, and departs back to Glasgow at xx:19, so there is certainly not
enough time.

What they could do I suppose is just put an extra unit on the service,
and extend it to Alloa, using the current timings, ie the 11:58 arrival
at Stirling runs on to Alloa, and gets back in time for the 13:19
departure back.

Is this possible?

Ross

[4973]

Post by Ross A. Nicol

Post by 4973
From what I remember of the layover at Stirling it is probably not enough
to cover the trip to Alloa and back. Some recasting of the service will be
required, quite possibly the Dunblane service will revert to being just
Waverley to Dunblane.

Just checked the timetables, and the Glasgow -> Stirling arrives here at
xx:58, and departs back to Glasgow at xx:19, so there is certainly not
enough time.
What they could do I suppose is just put an extra unit on the service,
and extend it to Alloa, using the current timings, ie the 11:58 arrival
at Stirling runs on to Alloa, and gets back in time for the 13:19
departure back.
Is this possible?

Certainly possible assuming that

1 there is an extra unit available (all too often ther is not)

2 there is somewhere for the returning set from Alloa to cross with the
12:58 to Alloa from Stirling.

If TPTB decide to be real cheapskates then point 2 could scupper it. More
likely to get a shuttle between Stirling and Alloa then.

[Ross A. Nicol]

Post by 4973

Post by Ross A. Nicol
What they could do I suppose is just put an extra unit on the service,
and extend it to Alloa, using the current timings, ie the 11:58 arrival
at Stirling runs on to Alloa, and gets back in time for the 13:19
departure back.
Is this possible?

Certainly possible assuming that
1 there is an extra unit available (all too often ther is not)
2 there is somewhere for the returning set from Alloa to cross with the
12:58 to Alloa from Stirling.
If TPTB decide to be real cheapskates then point 2 could scupper it. More
likely to get a shuttle between Stirling and Alloa then.

Surely Stirling could be used as the crossing point?

If the 11:58 takes, say 15 minutes to Alloa, and allowing 10 minutes at
Alloa itself, then it could be back in Stirling at 12:38.

This would allow passengers to transfer to the 12:49 to Glasgow (12:41
ex Dunblane, and the unit from Alloa would then form the 13:19 back to
Glasgow, allowing the 12:58 from Glasgow to pass it in Stirling station.

It also allows for any passengers who do not wish to change trains to
stay on the same unit, albeit with an extended standing time in
Stirling.

As you have said in reply to another poster though, we shall have to
just wait and see.

Ross

[Stuart Jamieson]

Post by 4973

Post by Stuart Jamieson

Post by Paul Robertson
There will also be improvements to services to and from the city
when the proposed Stirling-Alloa-Kincardine line is finally up
and running[4].
[4] Could this just be an extension of the Cumbernauld service? The
line from Queen Street to Greenhill via Croy is pretty busy as it is.

At the moment the service is twice an hour Queen St->Stirling
One of which continues to Dunblane and terminates, the other
terminates at Stirling.
What will most likely happen is that the other will now terminate at
Alloa and return.

From what I remember of the layover at Stirling it is probably not
enough to cover the trip to Alloa and back. Some recasting of the
service will be required, quite possibly the Dunblane service will
revert to being just Waverley to Dunblane.
Having said that I remember looking at the public TT a few years back
and working out that the roster was something like Waverley -
Bathgate - NewCraighall - Dunblane - Waverley.

I think though I'm not fully sure that the lay over is aprox 20 mins see If
I get this right.

Post by 4973
18, :48 Trains Depart Glasgow
58, :31 Trains Arrive Stirling
31 Trains Depart Stirling
40 Trains Arrive Dunblane
40 Trains Depart Dunblane
48 Trains Arrive Stirling
20, :49 Trains Depart Stirling
01, :29 Trains Arrive Glasgow
03, :33 Trains Depart Waverly
52, :22 Trains Arrive Stirling
03, :33 Trains Arrive Dunblane
27, :57 Trains Depart Dunblane
35, :05 Trains Arrive Stirling
29, :58 Trains Arrive Waverly

I think that's correct can someone confirm?

I'm not sure how long the stirling->Alloa Route will take but I would have
to estimate it at 10-15 mins each way so a 20 min layover might not be
enough.

Well, one soloution would be firstly to terminate one of the Edinburgh
services at Alloa, then route it back to Glasgow.
In the meantime the Glasgow service terminated at Stirling returns to
Edinburgh.

I think that gives a Whole Hour Crossover for the trip to Alloa and
Back and still keeps both services running (with the loss of one
Edinburgh->Dunblane service)

But that would only work one way, need to do some work to get the other
direction going, but it should be possible.

Of course if I've got the timetable wrong that is a whole load of
rubbish or at least the timings will be.

--
Stuart Jamieson
Technical Manager
Interactive Outdoors
***@npgvir-bhgqbbef.pb.hx
UnScramble (ROT13) for Email address

[Fraser]

Post by Stuart Jamieson
I'm not sure how long the stirling->Alloa Route will take but I would have
to estimate it at 10-15 mins each way so a 20 min layover might not be
enough.

More likely about 8-9 minutes. It's only 6 miles and 8 minutes is allowed
for the same distance to Dunblane, and that's up a steep hill.

Post by Stuart Jamieson
Well, one soloution would be firstly to terminate one of the Edinburgh
services at Alloa, then route it back to Glasgow.
In the meantime the Glasgow service terminated at Stirling returns to
Edinburgh.

No need for this - see my earlier explanation which makes a lot more sense.

Post by Stuart Jamieson
I think that gives a Whole Hour Crossover for the trip to Alloa and
Back and still keeps both services running (with the loss of one
Edinburgh->Dunblane service)

Any reduction in service from Dunblane will be met with utter outrage from
my fellow residents and me!

[4973]

Post by Fraser

Post by Stuart Jamieson
I'm not sure how long the stirling->Alloa Route will take but I would
have to estimate it at 10-15 mins each way so a 20 min layover might not
be enough.

More likely about 8-9 minutes. It's only 6 miles and 8 minutes is allowed
for the same distance to Dunblane, and that's up a steep hill.

Depends on how much they are prepare to spend.

They might go for the cheapskate version that only allows about 30 MPH max.
There's also the matter of sensible (i.e. HSE defined) turnaround times.

WE shall have to wait and see I'm afraid.

[Alan Norris]

On Sat, 21 Aug 2004 11:28:25 +0100, "Fraser"

Post by Fraser

Post by Stuart Jamieson
I'm not sure how long the stirling->Alloa Route will take but I would have
to estimate it at 10-15 mins each way so a 20 min layover might not be
enough.

More likely about 8-9 minutes. It's only 6 miles and 8 minutes is allowed
for the same distance to Dunblane, and that's up a steep hill.

Post by Stuart Jamieson
Well, one soloution would be firstly to terminate one of the Edinburgh
services at Alloa, then route it back to Glasgow.
In the meantime the Glasgow service terminated at Stirling returns to
Edinburgh.

No need for this - see my earlier explanation which makes a lot more sense.

Post by Stuart Jamieson
I think that gives a Whole Hour Crossover for the trip to Alloa and
Back and still keeps both services running (with the loss of one
Edinburgh->Dunblane service)

Any reduction in service from Dunblane will be met with utter outrage from
my fellow residents and me!

Is there any more news about the idea of reopening Greenloaning as a
park and ride? That would mean a complete recasting of the Stirling
area timetables.

Alan



Don't reply to this e-mail address - messages will be deleted unread. To reply to me take away the news and substitute alanc

[Fraser]

Post by 4973
From what I remember of the layover at Stirling it is probably not enough to
cover the trip to Alloa and back. Some recasting of the service will be
required, quite possibly the Dunblane service will revert to being just
Waverley to Dunblane.

As a Dunblane resident, that better not be the case - there is more than
enough demand from Dunblane to warrant the continuation of a full, hourly
service to Glasgow.

What should happen is that the service arriving in Stirling at xx59 will
continue to Alloa. Instead of returning to form the xx19 out of Stirling, it
will form the xx49 out of Stirling and the xx19 will be formed by the
service from Dunblane, whose departure time will switch from xx41
(currently) to xx11.

All this means is that the incoming service from Edinburgh to Dunblane which
currently arrives at xx33 and forms the xx41 to Glasgow will instead form
the xx57 to Edinburgh, while the xx03 arrival from Edinburgh will make the
new xx11 to Queen Street.

Reasonably simple, I would have thought?

[Ross A. Nicol]

On Sat, 21 Aug 2004 11:23:07 +0100, "Fraser"

Post by Fraser
What should happen is that the service arriving in Stirling at xx59 will
continue to Alloa. Instead of returning to form the xx19 out of Stirling, it
will form the xx49 out of Stirling and the xx19 will be formed by the
service from Dunblane, whose departure time will switch from xx41
(currently) to xx11.
All this means is that the incoming service from Edinburgh to Dunblane which
currently arrives at xx33 and forms the xx41 to Glasgow will instead form
the xx57 to Edinburgh, while the xx03 arrival from Edinburgh will make the
new xx11 to Queen Street.
Reasonably simple, I would have thought?

It does indeed seem reasonably simple, even more so that my suggestion
of the xx59 arrival at Stirling running to Alloa and back and then
waiting at Stirling to form the next xx19.

Note that I didn't see your message until after I'd posted my suggestion
because you only posted to free.uk.scotland.transport-railways, whereas
parts of the thread are also cross-posted to uk.railway.

Perhaps you might consider cross-posting the above idea to uk.railway to
give it a wider audience?

Note (2) - I did try and email you regarding the cross-posting, but your
email address seems to be invalid.

Ross

[David Hansen]

On Fri, 20 Aug 2004 18:03:48 GMT someone who may be "Stuart

Post by Stuart Jamieson
Improvements to services could mean anything.

One of the "improvements" is running dirty, smelly, noisy, rattling
diesel trains to North Berwick. Just the sort of stupid decision
people were concerned about when they discovered this shower had got
the "franchise". Take a look at the condition of their buses in
Edinburgh to see what they are like.

[Ewan]

Post by David Hansen
On Fri, 20 Aug 2004 18:03:48 GMT someone who may be "Stuart

Post by Stuart Jamieson
Improvements to services could mean anything.

One of the "improvements" is running dirty, smelly, noisy, rattling
diesel trains to North Berwick. Just the sort of stupid decision
people were concerned about when they discovered this shower had got
the "franchise". Take a look at the condition of their buses in
Edinburgh to see what they are like.

And would it have been any different if NatEx or Arriva had won the
franchise instead? Personally I doubt it.

Regards,
Ewan

[Jock.]

Post by Ewan

Post by David Hansen
On Fri, 20 Aug 2004 18:03:48 GMT someone who may be "Stuart

Post by Stuart Jamieson
Improvements to services could mean anything.

One of the "improvements" is running dirty, smelly, noisy, rattling
diesel trains to North Berwick. Just the sort of stupid decision
people were concerned about when they discovered this shower had got
the "franchise". Take a look at the condition of their buses in
Edinburgh to see what they are like.

And would it have been any different if NatEx or Arriva had won the
franchise instead? Personally I doubt it.

Of course not, they're privatised public utilities after all, aren't they?

[Jim Mason]

Post by David Hansen
On Fri, 20 Aug 2004 18:03:48 GMT someone who may be "Stuart

Post by Stuart Jamieson
Improvements to services could mean anything.

One of the "improvements" is running dirty, smelly, noisy, rattling
diesel trains to North Berwick. Just the sort of stupid decision
people were concerned about when they discovered this shower had got
the "franchise". Take a look at the condition of their buses in
Edinburgh to see what they are like.

First Groups buses in Glasgow are clean, frequent, punctual and modern. If
they run Scotrail in the same manner I will be quite happy.

Jim

[Scott]

On Sat, 21 Aug 2004 11:27:17 +0100, Jim Mason

Post by Jim Mason

Post by David Hansen
On Fri, 20 Aug 2004 18:03:48 GMT someone who may be "Stuart

Post by Stuart Jamieson
Improvements to services could mean anything.

One of the "improvements" is running dirty, smelly, noisy, rattling
diesel trains to North Berwick. Just the sort of stupid decision
people were concerned about when they discovered this shower had got
the "franchise". Take a look at the condition of their buses in
Edinburgh to see what they are like.

First Groups buses in Glasgow are clean, frequent, punctual and modern. If
they run Scotrail in the same manner I will be quite happy.

I'm told there is a problem with passengers smoking, so the term
'clean' cannot strictly be applied.

Scott

[Jim Mason]

Post by Scott
On Sat, 21 Aug 2004 11:27:17 +0100, Jim Mason

Post by Jim Mason

Post by David Hansen
On Fri, 20 Aug 2004 18:03:48 GMT someone who may be "Stuart

Post by Stuart Jamieson
Improvements to services could mean anything.

One of the "improvements" is running dirty, smelly, noisy, rattling
diesel trains to North Berwick. Just the sort of stupid decision
people were concerned about when they discovered this shower had got
the "franchise". Take a look at the condition of their buses in
Edinburgh to see what they are like.

First Groups buses in Glasgow are clean, frequent, punctual and modern. If
they run Scotrail in the same manner I will be quite happy.

I'm told there is a problem with passengers smoking, so the term
'clean' cannot strictly be applied.

I have never came across a passenger smoking in a First Group bus.

Jim

[Ewan]

Post by Jim Mason

Post by Scott
On Sat, 21 Aug 2004 11:27:17 +0100, Jim Mason

Post by Jim Mason
First Groups buses in Glasgow are clean, frequent, punctual and modern. If
they run Scotrail in the same manner I will be quite happy.

I'm told there is a problem with passengers smoking, so the term
'clean' cannot strictly be applied.

I have never came across a passenger smoking in a First Group bus.

Well, they do.

And while the buses start out clean, by the evening they rarely are.

Regards,
Ewan

[Alan Norris]

On Fri, 20 Aug 2004 08:25:52 +0100, David Hansen

Post by David Hansen
On Fri, 20 Aug 2004 18:03:48 GMT someone who may be "Stuart

Post by Stuart Jamieson
Improvements to services could mean anything.

One of the "improvements" is running dirty, smelly, noisy, rattling
diesel trains to North Berwick. Just the sort of stupid decision
people were concerned about when they discovered this shower had got
the "franchise". Take a look at the condition of their buses in
Edinburgh to see what they are like.

Think their Edinburgh buses are bad? The *newest* Bannockburn based
buses are S registration Scanias and Dennis Darts, and the oldest are
I think 1981 (X) Metrobuses.


Alan


Don't reply to this e-mail address - messages will be deleted unread. To reply to me take away the news and substitute alanc

[David Marsh]

[Outlook error: message invisible. See http://viewport.co.uk/outlook ]
begin David Hansen's quote in scot.general
about: Re: FirstGroup confirmed as winners of next ScotRail franchise

Post by David Hansen
On Fri, 20 Aug 2004 18:03:48 GMT someone who may be "Stuart

Post by Stuart Jamieson
Improvements to services could mean anything.

One of the "improvements" is running dirty, smelly, noisy, rattling
diesel trains to North Berwick.

Is that an actual active decision by First, or just what they've
currently been lumbered with given that the electric trains from darn
sarf had to be sent back home?

Certainly, it is somewhat pointless (and polluting) to be running diesel
trains under the wires and this should be addressed urgently.

Post by David Hansen
Just the sort of stupid decision
people were concerned about when they discovered this shower had got
the "franchise". Take a look at the condition of their buses in
Edinburgh to see what they are like.

On the other hand, First Glasgow have invested significantly in buses in
recent years: it's a real day and night comparison to the dirty,
smelly (and smokey), noisy, rattling crap that Ra People's Buses had made
the city's inhabitants travel on for years. They've also made
significant improvements to route frequency, easy to use timetabling,
inter-bus ticketing, and vastly improved the night bus services.

First Edinburgh have only a very small share of the market compared to
Lothian Buses, so perhaps they are less able to invest in improvements.
(Why we have the ridiculous scenario of 'competing' bus companies rather
than cooperating franchises is another matter altogether..)


It's unfortunate that National Express, who had seemed to be doing a
perfectly adequate, if generally unexciting [1], job of running ScotRail,
weren't re-awarded the franchise, but I remain hopeful that First should
manage to at least maintain that standard given their bus experience in
Glasgow.

[1] The very welcome 15-minute Glasgow - Edinburgh frequency excepted.


I just hope we don't have to suffer the Barbie-ization of our trains'
livery, but I suspect that's inevitable. :-(

[David Hansen]

On Thu, 9 Sep 2004 21:58:02 -0000 someone who may be David Marsh

Post by David Marsh

Post by David Hansen
One of the "improvements" is running dirty, smelly, noisy, rattling
diesel trains to North Berwick.

Is that an actual active decision by First, or just what they've
currently been lumbered with given that the electric trains from darn
sarf had to be sent back home?

The main problem is the outrageous charges of the train leasing
companies. The current trains should cost very little, as their
costs were written down years or decades ago. Unfortunately nobody
seems prepared to look into the issue, I have no idea why.

Post by David Marsh
First Edinburgh have only a very small share of the market compared to
Lothian Buses, so perhaps they are less able to invest in improvements.

Buses are used by the group rather than an individual company. At
one time some of their services in and to Edinburgh were operated by
very swanky buses, but these were moved elsewhere.

Post by David Marsh
It's unfortunate that National Express, who had seemed to be doing a
perfectly adequate, if generally unexciting [1], job of running ScotRail,
weren't re-awarded the franchise, but I remain hopeful that First should
manage to at least maintain that standard given their bus experience in
Glasgow.

I am more concerned about their performance on the railways, which
is patchy at best.

Post by David Marsh
[1] The very welcome 15-minute Glasgow - Edinburgh frequency excepted.

BR aspiration, written into the "franchise". They also, as
"franchise" commitments, provided Sunday trains on many lines around
Glasgow and increased frequencies in a number of places.

Post by David Marsh
I just hope we don't have to suffer the Barbie-ization of our trains'
livery, but I suspect that's inevitable. :-(

There is already a website off their main home page. It looks
disgusting.

[David Marsh]

[Outlook error: message invisible. See http://viewport.co.uk/outlook ]
begin Paul Robertson's quote in scot.general
about: Re: FirstGroup confirmed as winners of next ScotRail franchise

Post by Paul Robertson
More on how it affects the west in today's Evening Times [my notes]
The firm has also given a commitment to support the Scottish
Executive plans for a Glasgow Airport rail link and the reopening
of the Airdrie-Bathgate link.

I presume they don't get much choice in the matter anyway, and, besides,
the franchisee is paying for neither.. ;-)

"We welcome the free lunch the Scottish Executive is giving us" :-)

Post by Paul Robertson
Making the official announcement, Scottish Transport Minister
Nicol Stephen insisted the bus and train company would continue
to run all current services operated by ScotRail and the SPT.

Would it be too much to hope for proper through-ticketing?

Not just PlusBus (which of course you can't actually buy when you
*first* need it: on the bus which takes you *to* *your* station in the
first place), but actually something along the lines of "Day Return from
Zone G1 to Zone R3 [irrespective of mode], please", or even <shock> a
one-day Zonecard which you could just buy before travel from your local
newsagent, etc.

Post by Paul Robertson
Rail bosses said the shake-up had been ordered by Strathclyde
Passenger Transport because more people were staying longer in
the centre of Glasgow. As a result, late-night services will run
from Monday to Saturday.
An extra train will run on every SPT route out of Glasgow between
11.45pm and 12.15am.

That's good news, although you'd need to be fit to run from pub to
station in time after closing time!

And it's still hardly "late" in a proper, civilised, European-city sense.

Just as well there's a 15-minute night bus service on many routes at
weekends.

[JB]

Post by David Marsh
BBC News reports that FirstGroup have been confirmed as the winners of
the next ScotRail franchise.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/3582710.stm

Will this have any effect on the Caledonian sleeper services? I seem to
remember that they don't make money but were a requirement of the old
franchise.

I love travelling on them but I have to say they always seem to be about 75%
empty.

[Richard]

Post by JB
Will this have any effect on the Caledonian sleeper services? I seem to
remember that they don't make money but were a requirement of the old
franchise.
I love travelling on them but I have to say they always seem to be about 75%
empty.

They will be continuing, though probably with GBRf haulage.

I too consider them a very civilised form of transport, just don't seem to
have the critical mass to be considered by most people. They don't even run
7 days a week!

[John ireland]

Post by Richard

Post by JB
Will this have any effect on the Caledonian sleeper services? I seem to
remember that they don't make money but were a requirement of the old
franchise.
I love travelling on them but I have to say they always seem to be about

75%

Post by JB
empty.

They will be continuing, though probably with GBRf haulage.
I too consider them a very civilised form of transport, just don't seem to
have the critical mass to be considered by most people. They don't even run
7 days a week!

Should be interesting, but what have GBRf got that could do passenger
services? Could we see class 66s with generator vans? Unless GBRf unless
they invest in something with a suitable axle loading that can also cope
with the curvature of the West Highland how are they to do it?

[Jack Taylor]

Post by John ireland
Should be interesting, but what have GBRf got that could do passenger
services? Could we see class 66s with generator vans? Unless GBRf unless
they invest in something with a suitable axle loading that can also cope
with the curvature of the West Highland how are they to do it?

There is talk of them hiring in some off-lease Class 87s for the WCML
section. Not sure what they propose using on the diesel legs.

[Richard]

Another point of interest - just where do they plan to spend 1m pounds on
the sleepers? The press release said on improvements to Aberdeen and Fort
William - is this a disingenuous announcement about a change of loco haulage
on these legs (67s?) or is it actually a refurb?

[James Hancock]

Post by John ireland
Should be interesting, but what have GBRf got that could do passenger
services? Could we see class 66s with generator vans? Unless GBRf unless
they invest in something with a suitable axle loading that can also cope
with the curvature of the West Highland how are they to do it?

Apparently GBRf are looking to lease/acquire some of the soon-to-be surplus
Virgin 87s to haul the electric 'legs' of the sleeper. I presume EWS 67s
will still be required for the Aberdeen/Inverness and possible 37 for Fort
William sections.

[Ewan]

[......Caledonian Sleeper.......] I presume EWS 67s
will still be required for the Aberdeen/Inverness and possible 37 for Fort
William sections.

Freightliner have some 47/8s....

eat

[Richard]

Post by John ireland

Post by Richard
They will be continuing, though probably with GBRf haulage.
I too consider them a very civilised form of transport, just don't seem to
have the critical mass to be considered by most people. They don't even run
7 days a week!

Should be interesting, but what have GBRf got that could do passenger
services? Could we see class 66s with generator vans? Unless GBRf unless
they invest in something with a suitable axle loading that can also cope
with the curvature of the West Highland how are they to do it?

Cl 87s most likely.

EWS are also likely to lose the contract for 37s, though I'm not sure if
GBRf will get 37s to replace them (do they already have some?)

[Richard C]

Post by JB

Post by David Marsh
BBC News reports that FirstGroup have been confirmed as the winners of
the next ScotRail franchise.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/3582710.stm

Will this have any effect on the Caledonian sleeper services? I seem to
remember that they don't make money but were a requirement of the old
franchise.
I love travelling on them but I have to say they always seem to be about 75%
empty.

If they're only running 25% full, does that mean that with a 2nd class
ticket that I'm unlikely to be asked to share a cabin with a stranger
(something that's alway put me off using the ScotRail sleepers)?

[Richard]

Post by Richard C
If they're only running 25% full, does that mean that with a 2nd class
ticket that I'm unlikely to be asked to share a cabin with a stranger
(something that's alway put me off using the ScotRail sleepers)?

My experience (on a sample size of 1) is that if there is sufficient space,
they'll give you a berth to yourself.

It truly is a most dignified and restful way to travel, and one that I would
use far more regularly if they would only run them on saturday nights!!! (I
imagine they are at their most busy on Mondays and Fridays, but there must
be a fair degree of holiday traffic too. It is a shame that they have so
little visibility, if I wasn't interested in the railways I would never have
found out about them, even though now I've sampled them I'm likely to be a
regular user, and not because I like trains!)

[Scott]

Post by Richard

Post by Richard C
If they're only running 25% full, does that mean that with a 2nd class
ticket that I'm unlikely to be asked to share a cabin with a stranger
(something that's alway put me off using the ScotRail sleepers)?

My experience (on a sample size of 1) is that if there is sufficient space,
they'll give you a berth to yourself.
It truly is a most dignified and restful way to travel, and one that I would
use far more regularly if they would only run them on saturday nights!!! (I
imagine they are at their most busy on Mondays and Fridays, but there must
be a fair degree of holiday traffic too. It is a shame that they have so
little visibility, if I wasn't interested in the railways I would never have
found out about them, even though now I've sampled them I'm likely to be a
regular user, and not because I like trains!)

I would have thought Sundays more than Mondays mysel, with people
returning after a weekend or going away to work for a week.

Scottf

[Richard]

Post by Scott
I would have thought Sundays more than Mondays mysel, with people
returning after a weekend or going away to work for a week.

Yes that makes sense.

[Ian Johnston]

On Sun, 22 Aug 2004 21:14:57 UTC, Scott <***@virgin.net>
wrote:

: I would have thought Sundays more than Mondays mysel, with people
: returning after a weekend or going away to work for a week.

If you are travelling fisrt class, by far the busiest day northbound
is Thursday, as MP's return home. Why do you think it's still
subsidized...

Ian

PS The same goes for flights. BM/BA Business Class on a Thursday
evening looks like Question Time...

--

[JB]

Post by Ian Johnston
PS The same goes for flights. BM/BA Business Class on a Thursday
evening looks like Question Time...
--

I didn't think BA had a business class on internal flights anymore.

[Iain Bowen]

Post by JB

Post by Ian Johnston
PS The same goes for flights. BM/BA Business Class on a Thursday
evening looks like Question Time...

I didn't think BA had a business class on internal flights anymore.

It doesn't. However, certain expensive economy fares are branded UK
Business and allow you into the domestic Terraces lounges.

Iain

[David Hansen]

On Sun, 22 Aug 2004 20:25:44 GMT someone who may be "Richard"

Post by Richard
It is a shame that they have so
little visibility, if I wasn't interested in the railways I would never have
found out about them,

They are known about in some circles. A number of my customers in
the artistic field (film, television and music mostly) are regular
users of these trains.

There is a dilemma though. If the unenlightened go through the
horrors of the 6am trip to the airport then there is more space for
those who like to travel in a civilised manner.

[David Hansen]

On 22 Aug 2004 12:16:58 -0700 someone who may be

Post by Richard C
If they're only running 25% full, does that mean that with a 2nd class
ticket that I'm unlikely to be asked to share a cabin with a stranger
(something that's alway put me off using the ScotRail sleepers)?

That depends on the day and where you get on/off. People travelling
midweek and getting on or off before the terminal stations tend to
be allocated single cabins more often.

However, I have yet to meet an unpleasant person on such a train,
though there will be a first time.

[John Ruddy]

On Sun, 22 Aug 2004 20:26:57 +0100, David Hansen

Post by David Hansen
On 22 Aug 2004 12:16:58 -0700 someone who may be

Post by Richard C
If they're only running 25% full, does that mean that with a 2nd class
ticket that I'm unlikely to be asked to share a cabin with a stranger
(something that's alway put me off using the ScotRail sleepers)?

That depends on the day and where you get on/off. People travelling
midweek and getting on or off before the terminal stations tend to
be allocated single cabins more often.
However, I have yet to meet an unpleasant person on such a train,
though there will be a first time.

I am hoping that with First winning the ScotRail franchise, they will
resume the sleeper service to/from Plymouth. It could be hauled by a
fGW 57 from Plymouth to Brum.

[David Hansen]

On Sun, 22 Aug 2004 23:07:26 +0100 someone who may be John Ruddy

Post by John Ruddy
I am hoping that with First winning the ScotRail franchise, they will
resume the sleeper service to/from Plymouth. It could be hauled by a
fGW 57 from Plymouth to Brum.

Although it would no longer be any use to me, I do think there is a
market to be exploited.

[David Marsh]

[Outlook error: message invisible. See http://viewport.co.uk/outlook ]
begin David Hansen's quote in scot.general
about: Re: FirstGroup confirmed as winners of next ScotRail franchise

Post by David Hansen
On Sun, 22 Aug 2004 23:07:26 +0100 someone who may be John Ruddy

Post by John Ruddy
I am hoping that with First winning the ScotRail franchise, they will
resume the sleeper service to/from Plymouth. It could be hauled by a
fGW 57 from Plymouth to Brum.

Although it would no longer be any use to me, I do think there is a
market to be exploited.

I can certainly think of at least one UK-wide organisation which used to
make *regular* use of the Scotland - Bristol sleeper service and which
has sorely missed its presence..

[Ian Johnston]

On Sun, 22 Aug 2004 19:16:58 UTC, ***@hotmail.com (Richard C)
wrote:

: If they're only running 25% full, does that mean that with a 2nd class
: ticket that I'm unlikely to be asked to share a cabin with a stranger
: (something that's alway put me off using the ScotRail sleepers)?

My experience is that it's very often difficult to get a sleeper a day
or two ahead. I think they are very often full, or nearly so.

Ian
--

[JB]

Post by Ian Johnston
: If they're only running 25% full, does that mean that with a 2nd class
: ticket that I'm unlikely to be asked to share a cabin with a stranger
: (something that's alway put me off using the ScotRail sleepers)?
My experience is that it's very often difficult to get a sleeper a day
or two ahead. I think they are very often full, or nearly so.
Ian
--

I'm happy to stand corrected, it was only a personal observation based on
the 6 or 7 trips I do per year. Funnily enough their seated section (which
I would avoid like the plague) always seems about 80% full.

What do other users think? Does it seem well used?